James Christopher, a sober alcoholic, originally attended Alcoholics Anonymous, but broke from AA early in his recovery due to his discomfort with the AA approach. Staying sober with his own "Sobriety Priority" program, he went on to found SOS (Secular Organizations for Sobriety/Save our Selves) in 1985. SOS has grown from one meeting in Los Angeles to a database of over 20,000 members worldwide. Each SOS meeting is autonomous and held on an anonymous basis at no charge to participants and stresses his "Sobriety Priority" abstinence-based, self-empowerment. Mr. Christopher worked as a Program Director for Priority One, an outpatient treatment facility in Beverly Hills, California for two years. He currently divides his time among three activities: SOS Clearing House duties, holding recovery workshops across the U.S. and abroad, and doing research on the evolution of the SOS Sobriety Priority program, which he describes as the "CVS Method" (Cognitive/Visceral Synchronization).

Counselor: Thanks for speaking with me today gentlemen. I would like to open with Father Mark by posing the question: Do you feel people need religion to recover?
Father Mark (FM): I encourage many of the folks I deal with, if they already have a religious tradition that can be supportive of the recovery, to utilize that to the fullest extent. If people do not have a religion, I tell them to have their initial focus on getting sober for the first year or so; and if they want to think about religion after that point in time, then they can. But I don't think you need a religion to get sober. I do believe you need a spirituality to get sober, but I would differentiate between the two of them.

Counselor: Jim, would you like to reply to that?
James Christopher (JC): Yes. In recovery, to achieve and maintain sobriety or recovery, my experience tells me that one doesn't need a religion. It's not necessary in the recovery process.

Counselor: Jim, do you ever feel religion is completely unnecessary, or do you think it can be harmful?
JC: I think that counselors should approach individuals and families in recovery from where they're coming from, from who they are. That's why SOS is a secular organization for sobriety. Much like, let's say, the United Way or any other secular entity, it's neutral, so to speak, so we really do not concern ourselves with religiosity or spirituality.

Counselor: Father Mark, belief in a higher power has helped literally millions of people. Do you feel the higher power has to be God?
FM: No, I don't. Obviously for me as a Catholic priest, it is God. However, I have worked with folks and allowed them to discover their own concept of a higher power - which doesn't happen to have to be God. Some of the folks who come into our treatment facility who might be agnostic or atheist struggle with that, and what I say is, "just imagine it as a power greater than yourself." And even for a lot of people, they can use the recovery group itself. They can visualize that this is a group of people that are staying sober; that there is something that's greater than I am, so initially that can be something that works as a higher power. So does it have to be God? No, I come from where Jim would come from: Take the people where they are and help them move forward, and whatever is going to help them stay sober is what's most important.

Counselor: Jim, would you like to add anything?
JC: I would just say that the higher-power concept is a created concept from the 12-Step model. It's not necessarily a concept that is helpful for all people. That's not everyone's cup of tea. A higher power could be a grizzly bear, but that has really nothing to do with whether one relapses or achieves recovery. The perception of a higher power or lower power or whatever is not necessary in one's recovery.

Counselor: Father Mark, what about a gay or lesbian client who has been repeatedly condemned by various religions, why would spirituality be important to them? Couldn't it be condemning?
FM: I've had direct experience with gay and lesbian clients that have been really hurt by organized religion. That's regrettable because I think that when organized religion gets into that mode it's very destructive and hurtful. I try to approach them with a very compassionate, loving, and healing approach. I take two of the principles from the A.A. fellowship - love and tolerance - that love and tolerance is what we should be about and help them focus on that dimension rather than the critical ... such as the condemning mind set of some of the very conservative religious groups, which is regrettable but that happens. So I've been able to work with gay and lesbian clients and help them to see and come to an understanding of spirituality that's inclusive and is based in love and tolerance rather than rejection and condemnation.

Counselor: Jim, would you like to add your thoughts?
JC: Sure. In one sense, as I said, when you think about religion as an inclusive organization, that's what it is. However, SOS celebrates everyone's recovery no matter how it's achieved or whatever that particular person may be ... a democrat or republican, gay or lesbian, tall or short, religious or un-religious ... that's the way we approach it. So that's just never a point of concern because of the welcoming atmosphere in the SOS model.

Counselor: Jim, would you ever try to talk a client out of their religion? If they came into your program and were Catholic or whatnot, would you try to talk them out of that?
JC: Certainly not. In fact, I have an excellent example. A woman who was Catholic happened to be a member of SOS - she said that she preferred a separation of church and recovery - so she came to SOS and it worked very well for her. She still is clean and sober to this day. That was never an issue. She was a practicing Catholic, but she preferred this secular, or as some see it, neutral approach. Recovery is an individual process.

Counselor: Moving on, here is a question for Father Mark: How can a pastor or counselor help someone who has rejected religion?
FM: I usually try to get at the root of that. Did they have religion; and if so, was there a painful experience in the past that has caused them to reject religion? And usually I find out that there is a hurtful experience that happened in the past. I try to work through that with them. I know that a lot of folks get into recovery after a long history of drinking and drugging and have some childhood notions about their faith and religion. I try to work with some cognitive distortions that they may have around religious beliefs. If someone has just flat out rejected religion, rejected God, is atheist, agnostic, or whatever, I just love them and accept them for who they are. Like Jim said, I would never try to talk somebody out of their belief system. I honor and affirm their belief system, whether it's different than mine; and if it is different, it doesn't threaten me, and just like Jim would say, we celebrate our differences.

Counselor: Here's a question for both of you, and Jim, we'll start with your answer: Do you feel addiction is a moral weakness or a disease?
JC: I certainly don't feel that it's a moral weakness. Is it a disease or is it a physiological anomaly? What are its components? I think the jury is still out. That's why at SOS we consider ourselves the free-thought form of recovery. We're open to exploring ... we don't have just one idea about alcoholism or drugging. We do feel very strongly - and this is the reason we exist - we feel that the solution is abstinence from drugs and alcohol. We work to achieve that and to support each other in that process in a safe, secular - not non-religious, but simply secular - environment. So as far as being a disease or not, I'm comfortable personally with calling it a disease and a habit. But at SOS, if someone had another viewpoint on what alcoholism is or is not, that's perfectly fine as far as we're concerned. The point is you want to achieve and maintain abstinence and have a life ... regain your life.

Counselor: Father Mark, would you like to respond to that?
FM: I am very much in the camp that believes that it is a disease, primarily a disease of the brain that distorts our thinking, perceptions, feelings, and behaviors. I believe that it is a primary, chronic, progressive, and fatal disease that is characterized by denial and oftentimes relapse. It's a disease that has many different symptoms.

Counselor: Should a counselor respond to a client's request to discuss religion in counseling? Do you feel there are ethical dilemmas being presented here? Father Mark, let's start with you.
FM: I'm very comfortable discussing religion with our patients in a counseling setting. I present ways it can be beneficial to their own life and recovery. Oftentimes, I explain different forms of prayer or meditation and how both forms of prayer and meditation can have positive medical benefits, like with help with mood disorders and lowering blood pressure and giving a person a sense of calm and centeredness. So I'm very comfortable with doing that.

Counselor: Jim, what are your thoughts on the subject? Do you think a counselor should respond to a client's request to discuss religion in a counseling session?
JC: As I said, SOS isn't a counseling session, it's a peer group support, and we do not discuss religion as a topic in our meetings, so that would not be applicable; it just doesn't come up.

Counselor: I see ... let's move on. Do either of you believe individuals in recovery should have a choice of religious- or secular-based therapy? Father Mark, let's start with you.
FM: I would say absolutely they should have a choice. If I'm a consumer seeking out therapy, I'm the one who's going to make the decision whether I want it to be religious or spiritual based or secular based. So as a consumer, and I think all consumers should have the right to choose what avenue they want to pursue.

Counselor: Jim, would you like to respond?
JC: I think they absolutely need choices. That's the reason for the existence of SOS. It opens another door and gives an option. Alternatives are needed in recovery. There should not be just one true way, there should be fifty doors opening because that obviously translates into more lives being saved.

Counselor: Would either of you like to make a closing comment?
JC: I would just say this, that the way sometimes questions are posed or discussions are held pre-supposes the A.A. model and serves as a starting point, and that's really not applicable. There are other ways to approach addiction and recovery. ... I guess the point I'm making is we need alternatives, we need friendly alternatives - choices - and SOS is not in competition with any other group, we're trying to just offer a choice. Also, for some folks it's an adjunct and they attend 12-Steps and SOS.

Counselor: Father Mark, would you like to add your closing comments?
FM: I would just say that in dealing with alcoholism and drug addiction, it is such an incredibly powerful disease that anytime we underestimate it, it has the potential to kill us. I agree with Jim, that whatever methods are necessary to help people get clean and sober, the more ways that we can find to help people, the better off we'll be. I, myself, am a firm believer in the NA and AA fellowships and the 12-Step model that's based on spirituality and a belief in God as the person who understands them. I have seen that work and utterly transform many people's lives, including my own. I'm a firm believer that the 12-Steps will not only lead a person to a belief in God, but they also can transform a person's life, help restore and bring reconciliation to relationships, and allow that person to live a clean, healthy, and sober lifestyle. So I'm a firm believer in the 12-Step fellowship, but any other way that helps a person get clean and sober is really what I would endorse because we're talking about the business of living or the business of dying, and anywhere that we can support the business of living, is a good thing.

Counselor: Here's a question for you, Father Mark, just off the cuff: With the recent negative press surrounding the Catholic Church, have you seen a drop-off in recovery in your area? Have people stopped going to your programs? Is there a reduction in numbers?
FM: I would say I have not seen anything in that way. I haven't seen any negative consequences in terms of recovery and people seeking help.

Counselor: Well, gentlemen, thank you for sharing your viewpoints with Counselor Magazine today. Hopefully readers will benefit from our discussion.